Today we’ll talk about proven online marketing tactics for 2019 and top mistakes businesses make. And we’re starting right now. If you want to learn more about other business growth tips, then subscribe to this channel. My name is Max, and you can ask me any additional questions in the comments below. Our guest today is Todd Welling from Overdose Digital who is the Founder and Group CEO of Overdose, a fresh breed of Digital Commerce Agency that works in deeply entwined partnerships with their Retail Clients. Overdose has been going through some exceptional growth and now taking their business to a global level. The company has been recognised as Westpac Auckland’s Best Emerging Business of 2018. Todd, would you like to add anything about yourself? Thanks to the invite to join you, Maxim. Yes, Iﾒm happy to give you a little bit of a history of Overdose. We founded the organisation by myself and Ryan back in about late 2016. Over the course of about two and a half years, we’ve grown out from the two of us as the founders to a team of around about eighty-five guys. Our teams are spread across about thirty guys in downtown Auckland. A big team’s over in Melbourne to about thirty guys there. A small new team is up in Singapore, and then we have a service centre over in Ukraine. So, our key offering is that we’re a mid-market Digital Commerce Partnership, essentially what that means is we work with retailers who tend to retail online between one and twenty million dollars. And we work with them in a strategic partnership format through the entire life cycle of Digital commerce. So, we view our business as three key pillars: strategy, execution and activation. Strategically I do a lot of my work with CEOs and Chairman’s, really trying to understand what digital transformation means to the organisation, modelling digital into their business, how do we incorporate digital into an omni-channel physical presence. That then leads into the design, user experience, platform selection, integration, architecture, website builds. And then off the back of that, weﾒve been going into some really deep long-term relationships around search, performance marketing, social media, automation, AI. So, essentially the majority of our clients we’re waiting is like in one or two to five-year relationship there. And the focus is always on that long-term growth of the organisation. So, we go into 2019 and we’ve got some big growth prospects. We’ve just joined a global alliance called Together Group based out of London. A couple of weeks Iﾒll fly out to London and New York, and we are opening offices there. So, the intention being that is within the next sort of year you’ll see Overdose growing from eighty man team to over two hundred man team with a truly global presence. And we intend to stay in that same market niche, Maxim, really servicing those high-growth mid-market retailers. We don’t particularly have much ambition to go into the super big organisations. We really enjoy working with those midsize organisations that still have the hustle, where people are passionate, there’s not too much organisational structure, that’s holding an organisation back. That’s kind of us: fast growth, lots of attitude, lots of speed, very hungry and genuinely passionate about the small to medium enterprise market in the Australian and New Zealand markets and now with a fantastic opportunity to take that vision globally as well. I know,Todd, that it’s very challenging to achieve Westpac Business Award. What kind of steps did you take to get this achievement? So, we’re not quite sure to be honest, Maxim. We turned up, and they gave us the trophy, and obviously, we filled in a lot of the paperwork to go through there. I think what they particularly recognised is that when we architected our business, we architected something that was very deliberately different. For those that work with a client, vendor, agency, partnership, relationship you’ll be used to a very prosaic structure of how those relationships tend to be. It’s very much time and materials, cost resources, speed ﾗ you kind of live in that triangle. And we very deliberately architected Overdose with an intent to be not just better but genuinely different, Maxim. So, we wanted a vision of a business model that separated us away from the crowd. And where everyone was running in one direction, we said that it’s actually not about the speed of delivery, or the cost of delivery, or the quality of delivery. It actually comes down to the resonance of the depth of relationship that you have with your partners. Taking an approach which wasn’t based on what you have asked for how can I deliver it cheaper, but instead of sitting down together with our clients. And really I’m orienting what does the future look like and how can we collectively make a change. So, it was those couple of decisions which really triggered our growth. And as a young organisation of only a couple of years ago was just four or five guys in a basement in Ponsonby, we were managing to land clients likes of barkers and merchants and the comfort group which were way beyond our standings. But what they bought into was our attitude. I think that is the attitude and the hustle and the group of entrepreneurial guys that we’ve built around us which has allowed us to trigger that growth. So, I guess they’ve never told us, but I guess what the guys at Westpac particularly liked in our model was it’s a majority of the world it doesn’t sound that innovative, but in our world, it was a pretty innovative bold step. We’ve seen really amazing both internal growth and international growth. The fact is that we basically exported our business within eighteen months and decided to go into Australia and Singapore very early and essentially that is the speed of growth. We’ve gone from our first year, and we turned over around about a half a million dollars. In our third year, we turned over eight to ten million dollars. So, that speed of growth is obviously something that I guess is a quotient of what they look for and what emerging as well. Todd, you mentioned that you grew from two people to nearly eighty people. And as a business owner myself, I know that it’s important not only to get new clients but retain the current clients and existing customers. What specific tactics and all things do you guys have in your company to retain the clients? Do you have any incentives or any contract? We actually took the reverse approach, Maxim. And we went with complete brazen trust. Every contract that we have with our clients is on a twenty-eight-day notice. Nobody’s locked in. Nobody’s tied down. And instead the approach we took was if we want to be accountable and if we expect our clients to pay a premium for our services, we should be bloody delivering. We should be delivering every day consistently. At the end of the day as a business owner, all the Overdose really sells is it sells time, people and ideas. That’s genuinely what we sell. Our issue with scaling always came down to the quality and calibre resource that we could attract into the business. So, I identified key individuals that I needed around me is that was my CTO, Ryan who’s my co-founder and my creative director, Paul who came in as my chief operating officer. As we acquired out into the Australian market, I was very quick to dilute my shareholding of the organisation to lock those individuals in. So, I only own about forty-five per cent of the company, and I have another eleven shareholders in the organisation. And they range from eleven per cent up to twenty per cent in terms of what those individuals own. But it’s a true group mentality. When I’m a huge believer, that collaboration is the future of business success, and if you’re expecting to get people to work as hard as you, you’ve got to cut these guys in. We’ve taken that to the next level with where we’re going through this global growth now. We’ve recently diluted the organisation another twenty percent and given that to all of our staff. Literally now every member of staff is a shareholder in the Overdose Group globally, and they have the opportunity not just to have a two-year career and jump agency to agency. But we’d love to see these guys hanging around for four, five, six years and really feeling like they’re part of that. At the end of the day retention comes down to people and the impact of people comes down to our management style. And that management style is incredibly flat; it’s incredibly inclusive. And we talk about a few keywords. And the most important one internally is accountability. And that’s both individual and accountable as a group. And what we tend to see is that with a group of really highly engaged staff if someone comes into that group and don’t perform at that same level, that group naturally kind of squeezes that person out, because they’ve seen what we can achieve as a group and then basically everyone who comes in, has to amplify that process more. It’s a really tight-knit team. We’ve had hardly any churn in our staff resourcing. We have incredibly liberal HR policies. It’s work when you want to work, where you want. So, nobody is locked down to location. If you’ve got problems with the kids at home, work from home. Do you need to take a day off? No problem. Catch up on Sunday. Everyone is judged based on their delivery and outcomes to the group and not based on hours in the seats and an exact number of tickets that they’ve achieved. Off the back of that what we see is that when you give back to your staff, and you show them that you genuinely care about them and their lives and that you want them refreshed, you want them on full speed targeting, that they give you a hundred and ten per cent. And when one guy sees the other guy’s giving one hundred and ten per cent, it becomes like this beautiful toxic environment where everyone is playing off each other. So, it all comes down to the people, and we wouldn’t have retained our clients if we didn’t have those right resources on board. I think another interesting part of that as well is that a lot of our resourcing has been quite organic as well. A lot of our development on marketing and account management teams whenever we have new roles available, we tend to feel probably sixty or seventy per cent of those of internal referrals. And then again keeps that accountability high because someone’s back to you in. I think we made one higher through recruitment and it didn’t work. So, we’ve never used a recruiter at all. And now we’re really lucky that we are probably on a weekly basis of people hitting me up like: ﾓHey, I’ve heard what you guys are doing. I want in. How do I make that happen?ﾔ In fact, we just hired a head of business development who called us and said: ﾓI work here. I want to work for you. This is where I want to beﾔ. And we kind of got people pitching to eyes now. And that’s really lucky, and it’s really humbling. I hundred per cent agree with you, Todd. If you look after your team, they will take care of your clients as well. It’s so connected. Todd, you’ve got a unique position where you work with dozens of small and big brands, and you see what’s working and what doesn’t. What do you think are going to be the tracks in 2019 in terms of the marketing? We get into some interesting situations. If you look at New Zealand, we probably look after an idea of three of New Zealand’s largest suiting menswear companies who are all direct competitors. We get into some very awkward positions where those guys who want us to be exclusive. But we can’t be exclusive in what we do. What we have the opportunity to do it because we see such a broad diversity of businesses that the learnings that we get off of that are applicable out to a much broader market. What’s been happening over the last sort of two years, there’re many trends that have happened. If you look at a systemﾒs architecture trend, there’s been a definite move from what we refer to as hosted open-source into what we now refer to as assess cloud environment. Typically if you are working with a commerce agency in a high million-dollars space in terms of revenue, you’ll probably pay two or three hundred thousand dollars for the website and the tools that you will buy. And it would usually take you sort of six to nine months to get to market. Now that’s still the truth if you are in a particularly complex, combined, B to B multi-currency, multi-location environment. But if you’re in a much more linear environment where you’ve a single store just in New Zealand Dollars with one revenue source, you can now look at products such as Shopify, BigCommerce, that allow you to get to market a lot quicker. But what you have to do is you’ve to change your shape of the model to fit that platform. So, we’ve seen that as a real trend that’s happening in the market and Shopify has been the leading light there. That has certainly reduced the time to market. It’s just reduced the cost of ownership, and it’s reduced the cost of the bill as well. So, there’s one key trend that’s happened there. As that product line has evolved what you’ve also seen is that you’ve had a lot of other tools that’ve involved in the background: your Snapchat, your Instagram stories, your Facebook Canvass, your Pinterest. All of these platforms have meant that the experience is now happening off a website. What used to happen two-three-four years ago was that you would build these incredibly intricate detailed experiences that would happen on your website. So, you’d have interactive lookbooks and hotspots and these very clever solutions. That was because we were using the website to drive conversion and drive intent and experience. That experience has moved off-site. And what that means is that the website itself has become much more transactional in nature. Now when someone sees your amazing Snapchats and videos on Instagram, and they choose to come to your website, they’ve already had that experience, and their intent level is higher. So, what that means when you are building your user experience for your website is there has to be a much more linear path to purchase and a much deeper understanding of those unique conversion triggers, because psychologically in the majority of cases that conversion happened at the point of where they double taps on that photo on Instagram. And then it’s our job as marketeers to guide you through that process from inspiration to conversion. That changes our role as marketeers, Maxim. So, historically it used to be our job as marketeers to grab these customers and drag them kicking and screaming through this website. And we would hound you with remarketing. If you looked at a pair of sneakers, we’d show you that same plenty of pair of sneakers ten, fifteen, twenty times until you gave in. That’s now changed, and we have to live in this environment of what I refer to as lighter touches and building more breadcrumbs. So, with the democratisation of the Internet where any player can take on the big boys we now have to accept that the control has passed from the retailer now into the consumerﾒs hand. If the consumer has so many platforms to engage with, so many retailers throw them up similar products and similar options. Even if your Alibaba and your Amazonﾒs trying to parallel import into the country and compete in direct, we have to pass the ownership over to the consumer. And it’s our job as retailers and marketeers to be there and do those light touches along the way and guide the path. It’s more of a hand-holding exercise than pushing behind. With that you’ll notice the candor and style of marketing will start to change, the spam just spray it wide. It still works a little bit, but it’s starting to die. And now we’re getting more into this space where we need to tell programmatic stories. Let’s look at an example. If you’ve gone and looked at a pair of sneakers online and historically we would show you five other similar pairs of sneakers or one higher, or one lower, or the same pair of sneakers twenty times, and we’ve shown you on every platform and every banner. Now what we do is to use a process of what we refer to as shoe lacing and what that means is we’re going to start telling you a story about that product and the features and benefits as opposed to just going to buy. So, let’s look at that pair of sneakers, that you like Allbirds, for example. Instead of showing you that here’s the sneakers, would you like a ten per cent an off coupon? We’re going to tell you an eco-story, about that product. We’re going to start talking about design provenance. We’re going to start talking about other consumers who have looked at that product. We’re going to talk about social proof. What we’re not going to do is to go straight for the juggler and discount until your purchase. So, that race to the bottom has happened. Everyone now has to come up a bit, and we now have to start talking about the value add and the benefits and gains of that platform, not just driving a conversion. I think the biggest change that I see is just marketeers have to think a lot more and their right to convert not just rely on programmatic tools where we force-feed consumers. Those that will win are driving really high-quality content, having got a really smart understanding of consumer intent, understanding the difference between features and benefits of their product and genuinely are looking at everything from a consumer perspective, not a CFOs bottom line conversion perspective. There’re heaps of other tools coming to market. Voice search is a thing now you’ve got. I think in one month’s time we’ll release our first client. He’s going to have an augmented reality website where you’ll be able to buy kitchen hardware. You’ll be able to literally see the tap on the desk, and you can turn it on, and water comes out. And you can walk around that with your phone. That’s a thing there. You’re going to see an image search. It’s a real thing in fashion to take a picture you like in a shot and do image recognition and find out the websites that do that. So, optimise your website to make sure that your images are searchable. That’s going to be a real key benefit. But the majority of all of these are sort of flourishing in one to two per cent states, Maxim. The core of commerce and marks hasn’t changed in a good product. It’s got to be well priced; it’s gotta be a well market, you should understand a consumer. Google in search will still be king, and you just have to keep on pushing through those channels. Todd, you mentioned a lot of different tactics: voice search and social media. And I’ve met a lot of business owners whoﾒve got big and medium-sized and small-sized companies. And some of them even haven’t detached themselves from the idea of paper advertising. How do you suggest those business owners work out when is the right time to do a different type of marketing because it will require a lot of expense right? You either have to hire a digital agency orﾅ Correct. So, I’ll give your audience some free consulting here that we usually charge a lot of money for. Here’s the trick. Facebook, Instagram, – all these guys are incredibly good at convincing me to advertise. And there’s a whole raft of guys out there on the market, snake oil salesmen that will tell you, will run your Facebook ads and will take five per cent of your revenue. If it’s too good to be true, it’s too good to be true. The truth here is, and this is really important that we understand this is that any marketing campaign that you run on Facebookﾅ And again let’s go back to that selling a pair of sneakers example. When you decide that I want to run an advert campaign to people who like sports activewear, there is nobody that’s going into Facebook and saying: ﾓPlease send me adverts about sports activewearﾔ. Nobody has done this. What has happened is that all of these social channels have used assimilation to assume that you will like that product. And then they match that with your other activities that have tracked online. So, Facebook is tracking you saying ﾓHey look! You’ve followed all these different sneaker brandsﾔ and ﾓHey look! I can actually see that you have to convert to the post to the sneakersﾔ. So, assimilation’s that these people like sneakers. We might be selling a hiking sneaker or a high athletic sneaker. That assimilated knowledge is never going to get particularly accurate. The only place on the Internet where you can get accurate intent-based marketing is on search. When you’re going to type into Google search that I want a pair of Nike AirMax size ten blue trainers, I know explicitly that you want that product. We’re not doing any assimilation; we’re not guessing. You have shown consumer intent. So, in Overdose, the way that we run marketing tact campaigns is that we run them from both ends. We run them at the one end where we’re doing everything from a brand and consumer to reach prospective and at the other end we’re running at them from consumer intent which is based on search. In the middle you arrive at the space which is social media, but you don’t start there. So, what we would do is we would be running SEO before we’d be running marketing. We’d be optimising our site. We’d be understanding what the traffic we want is, what is this consumer that should be coming to our page. As they come to our website, we then collect and build audiences. Now we might not know your email. You might not know enough about you. But we can still get you into an audience, and we’ve got you pixel, and we can market to you. We then slowly build up an audience of people who visited the page about Nike sneakers that came through search. We’ve then got an audience of people who we know like that product. Then we’ll push that audience up into a social space, and then we’ll start marketing to those people. And then we will ask Google. So I will ask Facebook to say: ﾓOf this snapshot of two hundred people that we have laser-targeted, can you please now tell me other people in that look-alike audience?ﾔ. And that, they will go and hit them and their influences and stuff like that. That process is how we get a crazy return on investment for our clients because we’re not guessing. There is zero guesswork in there. We’re using intent to drive an audience. And then from the audience we ask to get that little assimilation layer. So, we can then blossom out of those larger layers of the onion skin. With the brand space, you have to write off those budgets in different ways. So, a key thing for any CMO there is they need to chop up their marketing budgets into marketing which is due to drive revenue and marketing and which is due to drive awareness. What we see all the time, Maxim, is people… New sneaker brand runs these adverts on Facebook, and they get zero conversions. They may have actually acquired one thousand, two thousand fans, and a couple of people have been talking about that product. But they will look at that and say ﾓThat’s a resolute failureﾔ. It’s actually not a failure. It’s actually a misunderstanding of how marketing really works. And it’s the assumption that I can hit you with one piece of content and you will fall down my funnel and automatically convert. And the truth is current standards. We’re looking at around between twelve to twenty touch points to generate the conversion. That might be I’m seeing a picture on Instagram, seeing you inside search, seeing a Facebook post, seeing billboard ads, seeing a store, seeing a friend with those shoes on. We tend to see from twelve to twenty normal touch points. So, if you’re running a marketing campaign which is assuming I can introduce you to a new brand and just hope it works. Good luck because you’re actually not going to be successful there. So, you have to build value in different ways. You look at one budget and say: ﾓThis is money I’m gonna give that holy represented to generate conversionﾔ. So, that’s working from the search intent upwards. This other budget I’m going to give you is to build brand awareness, and that’s going to go from a top of funnel downwards, and that is to drop more people in the top. And then the other processes should drip them down. We’ve got guys here. And in fact, you just took a small business level, and we took on a new client who sells speciality gin online. They’d never actually done any digital marketing. They’ve been in market for about a year. They were doing around about five, six, seven hundred bucks a day in revenue. So, nothing’s exciting, but it was a good one-man band of the business. We took this approach, and we ran a three thousand dollar marketing campaign across December, and we grew them out in one month from an usual fifteen thousand dollars a month revenue to around about a seventy to ninety thousand dollars in revenue. And what I was doing was touching the right people at the right time. You don’t need to spend huge money on this. You need to spend smart money. That comes back again in the last point this, Maxim, into how you use your digital agency to run your ads. For goodness sake don’t run ad campaigns where your agency is getting a commission on what they spend. This is the old way that agencies used to work. which would be: “We’re gonna book for you ten thousand dollars worth of adverts, and for every thousand dollars worth of adverts we’ve booked you’ve to give us a certain commission on that. And that’s our payment for doing that”. It’s the worst possible way you could do business because what you’re basically saying to the agency is to spend more money and I’ll give you more money. It’s you’re guaranteed to lose there, and there’s hardly any motivation to make these things work. The second one and what can happen is the agency starts saying: ﾓInstead of giving me a percentage of the spend give me a percentage of the revenue that we generate for youﾔ. That again is really dangerous. It is what you start doing you start passing your whole marketing message on to this marketeer. And when we’re in this world of doing highly personalised adverts and gamification, you then are motivating these guys to do is to create sales at any cost. Don’t do that either. The way to use your marketing agency is to pay them a service fee for their hours and their time to run really good cost-effective campaigns and then give them a budget to work with. And a really smart agency will go: ﾓYou’re going to give me five grand. It’s going to cost you in resource two, three, four grand for me to run thisﾔ. But we want to hit this KPI together and set those KPIs together and build campaigns together and get involved with how those campaigns are being architected. So that, in the future you can take those back and start running them internally. And any good agency that’s worth its salt should be doing heavy lifting for you. And that’s why we call ourselves consultants. It is that we’re consulting. We should have to be there every day to run your business. We should be there to educate and help you grow as an organization and put some knowledge into your team. And so that whenever you come back to your consultant agency that was charging you one hundred fifty, two hundred bucks an hour these guys are adding value and not just rinsing and repeating. So, we should be doing the heavy lifting. You should be learning off the back of those skills and then you should be able to reimplement those. And then your cost of ownership of the agencies that starts to go down or if you love them, thank you lots of us if you give us lots of new and other things weﾒre getting on with. But that you’re always in this next step growth. So, never view their agency is about a source. View it as a value adds to compliments and make sure that you’re learning through that process as well. Todd, itﾒs interesting that you mentioned about rewarding your service provider. And as a business owner myself I’m interested in the return on investment. And I’d like to know your opinion on a different way of working with a digital agency. For example, is it possible that it is happening on a different certain type of marketing campaigns where you can share the actual benefit that the client will receive? If it’s a commission, fifty-fifty split or some kind of percentage because in this way I can see the actual results. And if I spent five thousand dollars it doesn’t mean that I will get ten thousand dollars back right? We have three or four of those relationships, Maxim. In fact a couple of them we’ve even taken equity in our clients business. But there is a couple of those relationships where we take a percentage of the total revenue of the business. I have no problem with youﾒre building out a reward mechanism where your agency gets to clip the ticket. But that clipping of the ticket should be across the whole semantics of the business and not on one campaign. So, if you are isolating yourself saying: ﾓI’ll give you Facebook and any money you make on Facebookﾔ you can clip that ticket, you actually end up with someone who’s overly motivated to do the wrong things in the wrong spaces. What I’d rather see and how we’ve architected it is that commission is much lower. We tend to be in more of a ten per cent sort of space. So, the commission is much lower, but we’re taking it across the whole broad of picture. And that’s because we’ve taken a true partnership approach and that’s why we’ll be touching the search strategy, the platform strategy, the marketing strategy, how we’re doing integrations, how we’re sourcing stock, where the stock’s located. And we’re taking a much broader perspective of the business and not just assuming that there’s this magical silver bullet that someone can fire up some adverts and that fixes your business. Because again any marketer’s worth their salt. They will look at your website and say: ﾓHey, look, Maxim. I’m pushing you all this traffic, but I can see these bugs on your website. I don’t like this user experience. I think your pricing is wrong. I think we should be bundling like thisﾔ. If they’re just looking at it as I’m gonna throw traffic again, I’m gonna hope and pray it converts. And if it doesn’t, I’m gonna try and find more cheaper. That’s just not good business. That’s just not smart business. There has to be a broader approach. So, absolutely build those relationships but build it in a deeper and more entwined space where those guys genuinely understand your business. Because far too many times in those situations there is no real motivation for them to genuinely understand your business. And where we’re in relationships that get it going to a couple of years, we fully get it. And if your marketing doesn’t get it and they walk into a room and they start saying: ﾓMy problem, Maxim. Lock me into account, so I started making it workﾔ. I can guarantee you all that guy’s gonna do is exactly what I said which is people who like sneakers and live in Auckland and an over 100k a year, send them these sneaker adverts. It’s just guesswork. If you want real smart it takes time, it takes energy, and it takes energy in both directions. So, the retailer has to spend time with their agency to make sure that they understand as well. And the agency has to be spending that time as well to get under the skin. And therefore you need to be building out at minimum three to six months relationships to expect to see genuine results. And as I say, anyone who tells you they’re going to throw you results up overnight, it is possible, it can be done. But the longevity and sustainability come through the partnership. Todd, you spoke about sneakers and Allbirds brands who managed to find their own niche. I believe their unique selling point is that they source the materials in a sustainable way. And I remembered one of your recent articles on LinkedIn, something about “Different. Better than better?”. Could you briefly give some examples of some of your clients may be that realised this idea how do they find their own unique selling point or this difference that gave them an advantage? This is actually more of a principle that I apply to my own business and then it echoes through other successful businesses when you are architecting your product, your business, your strategy, your reason for existence. If the only thing you have is that you’re better than the competition, then I don’t think you’ve really got any chance of having sustainability or longevity in the market. There are a couple of our retailers who genuinely are different but are really better. So, I took two examples: Rebel Sport and Briscoes. Rebel sport is hands down the best sportswear retailer in New Zealand. They understand pricing. They understand the gamification of that. Are they different? No. But they are pretty much the first to market. And they have got volume. If you and I, Maxim, wanted to start a sportswear company and we wanted to take on Rebel Sport, man, we’re gonna struggle, because we haven’t got their buying power, we’re not gonna have access to inventory. So, they are just better. They haven’t created a unique product. When you go into Rebel Sport’s store, it’s really well merchandise, but it’s not like some amazing Nike store. So, they just do all of the right things incredibly well. If you want to break into these spaces and you want to take on the industry giants, they’ve just got too much mass and volume around them. I look at businesses a little bit like the solar planets that have gravity towards them. And so now that we’ve got total sports we’re kind of gravitationally pulled towards Rebel. We start thinking: ﾓGod. That’s where it is. It has to be price drivenﾔ. We need to have sports celebrities marketing these things. And what happens is that you start playing the same game as your competition. And if you don’t have the ability to compete at that scale, you’re gonna lose. It’s pretty simple. Now I applied that to the Overdose. Being better is not an option. If you want to win you just got to be better. What’s better than better is being better and different. So, I think two of these are great examples. No one is our clients by the way, but we’d love to have them. I think all those have done it saying: ﾓLook. We’ve actually got a better shoe. This shoe is more comfortable. The shoe is more sustainable. The shoe is aesthetically pleasingﾔ. But it’s different. It connected with a different demographic. They talked about a different set of values. It was a digital-first product before they started going and driving physical stores. And they’ve now got a great store in San Francisco. So, the beautiful components are when you’re serving a similar need, but you’re doing and ask where they are. I think the best visualisation of this is if you’ve got kids soccer leagues. And I see this all the time where someone kicks a ball, and you have nineteen of those twenty kids that all runs to get this ball. And then there’s that one kid that goes: “Well, the goal is over here, and that ball is going to pop out at some pointﾔ. And I’m gonna be the kid that picks it up and scores to go. So, those are nineteen kids that have run towards the ball, and the only kid that wins is the biggest, the strongest or the fastest kid. That’s got the most skills and pushes about the other side. But if you haven’t got all those skills, you haven’t got that weight or that speed or that opportunity. You can build your own opportunity by being different and standing inside and saying: ﾓI’m gonna wait for that opportunity to come over here, but I’m gonna be the one that scores the goalﾔ. When you’re architecting a business, when you’re looking for how do you compete with those around you, finding that true differentiation is critical. And then even harder but even more critical is communicating that differentiation. So, if you looked at the Overdose model, the way that we communicated our differentiation was that we called ourselves an Anti-Agency, Agency. So, we literally went to market with this concept. And by the way, that term was made up by one of our clients. Not us. We weren’t that smart. But we went to market saying: ﾓHey, look! We’re an agency, and you understand that we’re an agency. But we’re an Anti-Agency, Agency. And that one piece of content, the little video that we run on our homepage, probably gets us as many leads as everybody else. If you go to every other agency website within Australia and New Zealand, these sell kind of the same stuff as well. They’ll build you a Magento website. They’ll show you some ads though. They do your research. The shape of their business is almost identical, Maxim. So, they’ll tell you: ﾓWe are the fastest, we are the best, we are the cheapest. We’ve got more clients than you haveﾔ. We went with a complete contrarian message which was we don’t have any of that, we don’t do any of that. But we’d really love your opportunity to work with you, and we’re pretty smart guys. And it works. I don’t think that there is any real mechanism of where you can falsely engineer that. I think it’s almost that you reach a moment that happens when you choose to start a business when you go: ﾓThis is my angleﾔ. And what happens I’ve seen so many of these businesses is they find this angle, this unique proposition. And slowly with time, that proposition gets eroded because you get gravitationally drawn to your bigger competitors and you start looking too much at your competitors, and you compare yourselves. And you go: ﾓWell. I can’t beat them because they’ve got that. So, I’ll create my version of thatﾔ. But in fact, all you’re doing is you’re becoming a me-too brand. And what you have to do is to say: ﾓThey’re doing that. Screw it. I’m not gonna go and do this. I’m gonna find something really unique and innovativeﾔ. So, I believe the trick to successful SMEs and startups is having a message which is communicable and understandable and people genuinely get it who you are. They understand we’re an agency and they understood that Uber is like taxi. I think it’s a taxi thing. I think it’s a taxi from place to place. But it’s also different. And again you look at all of those, use big examples there if Airbnb it’s still somewhere to stay, but it’s different. You look at your line. Itﾒs still public transport, but it’s cool when it’s different. So, it’s serving the same similar purpose, but it’s just got those high notes sparks. And from my own personal experience, try to keep those sparks alive and stay committed to your sparks and your true north of your a ha moment that happened two, three, four years ago. I think that’s the hardest role of an entrepreneur is not to be sucked towards where the rest of the market lies, but to still believe in your vision and stay true to that. And a lot of that means you have to ignore some of your clients, you have to ignore some of your staff. But you have to stay true to what you believe is. And the quickest way to not achieve that is to over analyse your competitors and to spend more time looking at their business than you do of your own. Genuinely believe that if you spend more time on your own and self-belief and a bit of obstinance in there that you get to a better place in the long run. But it means that you’re fighting that harder battle. And the harder battle I think, the bigger the rewards are for the company. Todd, we can talk for hours, and I really appreciate your advice. Would you like to mention anything else or say how people can find you? Sure, yes. We’re in Overdose.Digital and you’ll find me on LinkedIn. To find our website just google Overdose, and you’ll know who we are. We are active and present and across Australia, New Zealand and soon to be in London and New York. If people would like to speak to us, we’d love to speak to you. And that’s kind of us. Thank you for your time, Todd, and I hope to talk and to read about your successful company sometime again in the future. Thank you. Thanks so much, Maxim. All the best.